In this episode of The Archive Room, we sit down with the extraordinary Elizabeth Klinck — one of the most respected archive producers and researchers working today. With decades of experience on award-winning documentaries (Apollo 11, Stories We Tell, The Rescue, Zappa), Elizabeth shares how she blends detective work, historical instinct, and deep industry knowledge to uncover footage gold — from lost Muhammad Ali reels to rare rockabilly clips in Sweden. How archive research is like private investigation Tracking down forgotten footage across borders and formats A crash course in music rights and clearance Building a global archive network — and a profession This is a masterclass for filmmakers, researchers, and anyone curious about how documentary magic is made behind the scenes. Dominic Dare (00:23) Okay, so welcome to the Archive Room, This week's episode, we are delighted to have Elizabeth Klinck alongside my co-host, Sandra Coelho Sandra (00:33) Hello? Elizabeth Klinck (00:34) Hello. Dominic Dare (00:35) Elizabeth is a renowned archive producer, visual researcher and music clearance specialist whose work has shaped hundreds of international documentaries and feature films. Her collaborators include high profile directors such as Werner Herzog, Sarah Polly, Alex Gibney, Jerry Rothwell, underscoring her reputation as a go to expert in the field. Her craftsmanship in sourcing and clearing archival material has earned her multiple Emmy BAFTA, Peabody and Oscar adjacent honors. And she's widely regarded as a key behind the scenes figure in the world of archive. In addition to her production work, Elizabeth is deeply involved in professional development, designing and leading workshops, panels and training sessions at major international festivals and industry events. So Elizabeth, we're delighted to have you on the Archive Room. Elizabeth Klinck (01:21) And I'm delighted to be here with two of my favorite people in the archive world. So. Sandra (01:25) Hahaha Dominic Dare (01:26) Flattery will get you everywhere. So listen, let's just dive in and hear a little bit about your story. What first drew you into the world of archives? Elizabeth Klinck (01:35) Well, I first started as an undergrad student, as a reader to a very famous Canadian historian. And I fell in love with working in libraries and digging into editorial kind of archives, historical archives. And then I had the great fortune to work at the National Film Board of Canada as a young person. And there was a mentor that took me under her wing by the name of Barbara Sears, who was the preeminent historical researcher in Canada. And she really was a wonderful teacher and had come from the UK as a young woman to Canada and really became the go-to person. So I had that opportunity, which I can't stress enough. If you ever can find a good mentor, that's the way to get a very good foot in the door. I also worked as an assistant editor, which I also think is a great, training whenever you're working because you work so closely with the editing people. to know how an edit suite works. I mean, back then it was trim bins and a steam back, but I've kept up to date, believe me. But it really is an added bonus if you know how post-production works. And I also had another great mentor who was one of the first cinema verite cameramen to take the camera off the sticks, Wolf Koenig, who was one of the cinematographers. And he would take me to the lab and introduce me to the edge numbering woman. Dominic Dare (02:34) you Elizabeth Klinck (02:55) tell me about optical prints and all of the things I hadn't learned at university studying history and politics. And I remember saying to him, how can I ever repay you for all of the information you've given to me? And he said, well, Elizabeth, when you're my age, you'll be able to repay it to other young people because there really isn't a school where you learn this information. You learn it on the job. And he said, that will be my repayment if you pass along your knowledge to other people. And so I've really tried to make that my... my lodestone or my moral compass. And I've done that as much as I can over the course of my career, teaching, forming an organization and trying to work with and getting to know other archive researchers and producers around the world to learn from them and to help them form organizations as well as the one that we formed in Canada 20 years ago. Dominic Dare (03:43) You know, what would you say was the first project where you really cut your teeth as an archive producer? So when were you kind of deep in the weeds, shall we say? Or is there a project you can remember that that really formed your your passion for it? Elizabeth Klinck (03:55) Well, I worked for many years as an editorial or content researcher, bringing in experts, finding subjects for characters for documentary films. And that was really useful. And that was kind of how I fell into doing the archive side of things, because I would say to them, do you have any photos or do you have any home movies or do you have anything that might be interesting? And so I had to learn how to work with that material and how to bring it in in the best formats. And so I did that concurrently with my archive research. And then I learned to do the music clearances because as you know, we live in a world that's often very cyclical in terms of economics. There were times when stocks and talks were very, very important and then CGI came along and then docudrama and now we have AI. And so we have to be very nimble as archive researchers and producers to learn a lot of different trades. I had the great fortune to work as an editorial researcher and an archive researcher. And I also learned how to do music clearances because I think it's important for young researchers and archive people coming into the job to have lots of different skill sets. And so that's important. The very first all archive film that I was handed, and it was a high percentage of archives, it was really a baptism by fire dropping me off the deep end of the pool, was a film about Muhammad Ali after he declared he would not go to Vietnam. And of course, he was dropped by the American boxing organizations. And he was really an outcast in his own country. He came to Toronto and fought a Canadian heavyweight and the CBC and some of the other Cinema Direct type of camera people really covered him and it was quite wonderful because the Americans hadn't discovered that material even though we share the longest border in the world sometimes they forget that we actually cover American events and American events having dealing with Americans and so there was material there that no one had seen and it was quite remarkable because Dominic Dare (05:42) Yeah. Elizabeth Klinck (05:53) As Muhammad Ali said, he came to a country that was quite different from where he came from. He didn't have any problem in restaurants. He didn't have any problem with the police. He didn't have any problem with, he had a lot of young boxing aficionados who would follow him around and he would do little championships with them on the weekends while he was training. And finding that material and finding just the joy of uncovering material that people hadn't seen before, I think I might have wanted to be a private detective in another life. And so this was really, I got to do my dream, you know, and it was just that I called it the tingle principle, you know, when the back of the hairs on the back of your neck, when you find something and you just go, oh my goodness, this is so amazing. And so I never really wanted to lose that. And I have to say, it's why sometimes at 530 in the evening, I look up and I go, oh my gosh, it's almost time to knock off because you just get. Sandra (06:25) Hahaha Elizabeth Klinck (06:49) caught up in the joy of the hunt, and finding people who can give you the access to it as well. And we didn't have the same kind of digital access back then. We had to get screeners in and VHS tapes. And my best friend was the FedEx and the Postman. mean, they would, because I always worked kind of outside. After the film board, I've always been an independent. Dominic Dare (07:07) Yes. Elizabeth Klinck (07:13) and I worked from home and back in the days of dial-up internet. so those people kept me supplied with all my goodies. Sandra (07:23) in regards to that, what archive do you go to first to start? Yeah, to start. When you get a project, what's your go-to archive? Elizabeth Klinck (07:28) to find. My go-to? Well, it depends on the topic, and if it's Canadian, there aren't a lot. I mean, we have wonderful archives, but we don't have the same, you know, cornucopia of archives that you have in the UK or in the US. So that's kind of been a blessing and a curse for Canadians because we had to get really familiar with other countries. We couldn't just depend on local or national archives. So I usually start with the CBC because they have a wonderful collection of not only sound, audio, radio. Sandra (07:45) show. Elizabeth Klinck (08:01) as well as material. The National Film Board shot and filmed longer than most people, so they really have some of the most delicious material from the 70s. When everyone else was on video, they were still shooting on 16, so it made the up res a lot better. And so I... Sandra (08:11) Mm. Mm. Elizabeth Klinck (08:18) would go there. I also relied heavily on private collections. I would always try to see about home movies and user generated content, we call that now, but finding good material that way. In the early days, British Film Institute was a place I would often go to, ITN, because of their great African and international collections. I would also go to as many small archives as I could, and also cinematographers that I knew. I also would talk to other producers who perhaps have been shooting in East Timor and had great rushes that were sitting in their storage unit. so those are the places I would go to. Sandra (08:58) And before, before the like, how do you start a search to find those archives and those collections? I mean, before the days of YouTube out there, what did you used to do? Elizabeth Klinck (09:09) Well, I always do one thing and I still do it regardless of what the format or what the technology is, is I sit and think, who would I know if I were the person that we're making this film about? Who would be the people I would come in contact with? If I'm a human rights activist, I probably have a lawyer working on my behalf. I would probably be involved with NGOs and organizations. If I were a celebrity, I would have an agent. If I were someone who was fighting a law, a legal case, I'd probably go to the court. So I'd always try to figure out, I'd walk a kilometer or a mile in that person's shoes and really get to know who they might have come in contact with. Because often in this day of true crime, people have to be very agile and work with lawyers, work with courts, work with the police. And if you're working with sports, you have to get to know all of the professional associations because they really are very important. If you're working with music, it's important to get to know who are the people who collect musical history. depending, I always had a pretty eclectic subject. I never just honed in on natural history, for example, or honed in on performing arts. I like to have the variety. And so I would take that time. And I would also... call people who had worked on other projects. I would do a lot of pre-research before I'd start calling anyone who's made another film on this topic, who is the archive producer, and also who has perhaps made a film many, many years ago that will be another source of great material that perhaps has been forgotten about. So those are the kinds of things I would do. really plan. Dominic Dare (10:32) Mm-hmm. Elizabeth Klinck (10:50) I'm quite strategic. keep a roadmap. write down everybody I talk to because in some cases you work on a film for many, many years and you can't always remember who said, I think there's a storage unit in East LA that's got great material. You have to write all of that down. So I'm an obsessive note taker and I... I remember my mother saying to me, darling, are you taking this down again? And I would be on a call there. I'd say, yeah, actually I am. But it was the way I always worked, and it really uncovered material rather than just quickly going to the archives. was also, I had my favorites because sometimes the quality of the material, and I found out early in the game, a lot of archives are Dominic Dare (11:14) hahahaha Yeah Elizabeth Klinck (11:35) also selling material you can get from public to main sources. So I try to exhaust those first of all, and then because in Canada, we often didn't have as large budgets as in other countries. So we had to be really strategic and figure out ways to put the oatmeal in the meatloaf. And so we would find those free places and then use our budgets to be able to go to people that had really delicious things like Lola Clips, for example. So that's what I had to do. I think it... Sometimes our smaller budgets made us a little bit savvier, I think. Sandra (12:07) And you you talk a lot about building relationships, so how do you go about building those relationships? Elizabeth Klinck (12:13) Well, early on, I looked at the UK researchers and I saw that they were considered professionals in their own right. Whereas oftentimes archiver visual researchers in North America were seen as entry-level jobs that someone would have for a year or two, and then they'd be off to being a director or they'd want to be a producer. But I love the fact that there were people like Jane Mercer, there were people that made this a lifetime pursuit. And I... kind of fell in love with the concept. And I saw at Focal and I saw how people really took pride and they were accepted as a community, as having a profession. And so that became a bit of an MO for me, a mission for me. And so that was something that I really worked hard on because I thought, the archives liked it because 20 years ago we formed a group in Canada and I went to some of the archives and I said, there's an awful lot of unpaid interns who call you up and say, what do you got on the War II? And that's not so much fun as an archive. I'm sure you can talk about that or, you know, what's copyright? And so I thought, well, if we have a well-educated group of researchers and archive producers, we can really work with the archives in a way that's much more substantive and much more, you know, rich and we'll get great material that way. And so that became... something really important to build those community relationships. I volunteered to produce sessions very early on at things like the World Congress of Science Producers. Luckily, I was rich in airline points because my husband was a location sound recorder, so I was able to get my airfare covered through his points and I coached surf. But I did that from an early point. And I think it was important because there weren't a lot of researchers who would be at markets and would be at festivals. And I was always putting up the flag. I was always putting up the archive flag saying, can I do a session? Because I see you don't have a session on archives. And so it's a great way for the whole community to get known. Dominic Dare (14:17) And I think, you know, there's a couple of things that I think we'd like to expand on. One of the reasons why you're so respected and obviously there is a differential around the world is can you just spell out a little bit about the clearance side of things? there's people, so somebody's role can be on a TV show, can be a researcher, an archive researcher, and their job is to go effectively go and find clips. There's also clearance and you do both. So can you just touch a little bit on the subtleties of clearance, perhaps in relationship to music? So how does that work? What is clearance? and what's involved in making sure that you have something cleared, which means that it's good to go to be in the show. Elizabeth Klinck (14:52) Well, we have something in North America that's made us quite, we all have to be quite savvy about clearance because every production, small, medium or large has errors in emissions insurance. And one of the deliverables for errors in emissions insurance is to make sure that everything in your project that you have not personally shot, every person you've had interviewed, every piece of footage, every photograph, every satellite image, and every note of music, If it is not yours, you have to clear it. If you hear it, you have to clear it. And if you clear it, you have to pay for it many times. So that's where the producing comes in because there's lots of people who can track down great material and find it. But to be responsible for the budget means that you really have to look at a film holistically. And you have to look at, I really need to know. If this is the best source, is it going to cost me more than a different source? Am I going to be able to get all the rights that I need? Is it a Hollywood studio where I have to do third party reuse fees for writers, directors and actors? And do I have the right to use the music? And what is the term for something? And so becoming very familiar with all of those clearance, that terminology for clearance meant that you, the best way to learn about it is to do it. And so I worked on a few Hollywood heavy films many, many years ago. And luckily the people who are the gatekeepers of those studios were very patient with me. And I'd ask a few questions, try to, you know, always be polite. I'd always try to engage them in the program. So it just wasn't me handing them a shopping list and being this is what I need. I'd always try to engage them as a human being because I know they have to say no to sometimes to people. Sometimes their prices are too high. And so I've always thought nothing is gained by getting kind of shirty or angry with someone because they've quoted a very high price. So I had to figure out a way to do that. And I think by being personable and being honest, I'd say, you I've got a good budget this time and other times I didn't have much of a budget, but I was always very, very honest because otherwise all you really have in this job is your reputation, I think. And if you do something to besmirch it, then it's a bad, it doesn't bode well. So be honest and be. be decent and treat people who are at the archives as their partners in your crime. People are going to help you, they're not adversaries. And I think sometimes people think, if I'm just really kind of brutal about it, then they're going to listen to me. But it has the opposite effect. Dominic Dare (17:28) You know, in terms of somebody who's trying to start out as an archive producer or is interested in our world, you know, obviously nowadays you can search everything on YouTube and that seems to be an awful lot of way people start. But what can you what advice can you give for aspiring researchers or producers in terms of development of their skills? What should they be doing to get into this industry and what sort of skills should they be trying to nurture at the start of their career? Elizabeth Klinck (17:53) Well, I think a broad general knowledge is your best friend and a very keen sense of curiosity. You have to be curious. You have to be interested in the topic, but you also have to be diligent. You can't just say, these are the first 20 things I found. You have to go for the 200 thing you find. You can't just be picking the low hanging fruit. You have to find things that no one has seen or perhaps no one knows about. always say think globally, don't just think regionally or nationally about a story because our archive really has global feed. It can go all over the world and I learned that on a film very early on when I was looking at the world of rockabilly music and the biggest collection was in Liverpool, England. Like who knew? So I always just Sandra (18:41) Yeah. Dominic Dare (18:42) No. Elizabeth Klinck (18:43) globally and it was amazing what I found in Sweden working for on the Frank Zappa film, which was 100 % archive. They had fantastic material. Sweden television has amazing collections of stuff. so it was the, you know, just starting out, finding those people and talking. I really talk on the phone a lot because so many people do everything with, you know, texting or emailing. but you don't get the best stuff until you speak to someone. It's really when you start talking to someone and they go, you know, I didn't think we had anything when you sent me that email request, but now that we've been talking, we actually have quite a bit of stuff here, but it's maybe not labeled that way. I also recommend sending your own keyword list with lots of different options so that it makes the archive, if they have to do the in-house search, it makes their job a lot easier. I send different spellings of certain names because sometimes that'll make the difference between nothing and a glorious cache. I send along a timeline. So I say, these are the dates and these are the decades and these are the locations because that makes it easier too for searching rather than just something very generic and something bland. Dominic Dare (19:58) And you know this the new generation coming through which there is in in our co-production You know the worry is that there is so much archive material that is not digitized How how how is how we structures as an industry for kind of? Teaching and development for people these days I mean because I sort of feel like it's been somewhat nepotistic You've got to know somebody in film and TV to get in you know We all have kind of stories where we kind of ended up here or I there there are ways in, you know, tell us a little bit about some of the professional development you do in terms of that to help people kind of get into this industry. Elizabeth Klinck (20:33) there's two kinds of teaching that I do. I do a lot of teaching in film schools, in film academies around the world. And I also work with organizations that train and produce documentary filmmakers. And so I've approached them and say, could I get an afternoon or a day to talk to them about archives and about music? Because often they come out of a film school background where that is not on the curriculum and they're not familiar with it. And so I feel there's people we have to train who are our colleagues, but we also have to train the people we work with about, no, you can't just grab something off of YouTube out of a finished film with 25 different sources in that one minute that you've selected. You do have to do something called clearance, you know? And so I think it's important to start at a very early age in a person's career to know about archives, know about clearances, know about the costs involved, know about the legal ramifications, know about what's happening in terms of AI and a lot of other ancillary topics. But I think in terms of teaching, what we've done in Canada and what I've also been involved helping the Spanish and German researchers form an organization is have a database within your group that you can share. And that's kind of I call that e-mentoring because we often work quite far apart from each other. It's not like when you'd all be in one office together and you could share information. And so we have a lot of listserv questions from young filmmakers, young researchers saying, I can't get a hold of the person in Cuba. Do you have their mobile number? And five seconds later, they have three replies. It's wonderful to see. Dominic Dare (22:10) That's lovely. mean, I love that community aspect of our part of the industry. I think there is a cohesion that's really helpful. And you're actually a spearhead in that because you're so generous with your knowledge and your experience that you give to people. know, in terms of let's go back just a little bit back into I just want to kind of cover some music stuff because you've got it, know, background with music clearance. Just, you know, I don't know much about this. I know there are publishing rights, there are sync rights. Elizabeth Klinck (22:30) Right. Dominic Dare (22:36) So could you just give us a little bit of a masterclass in what would be involved? You know, just from from a basic point of view if you've got you've got some you've got a music performance But what do I do with it? Who do I go to and how's it? Sandra (22:39) Hahaha. Elizabeth Klinck (22:47) And you know, I didn't quite answer that question earlier about music, so I'm glad you've circled back, Dom. That's great. Well, I always say there's two sides to music. And it's like all good research. You go to the original source, and the original source with music is a person who's the composer, who came up with the tune. Never start with the album or the band. Think about who wrote the song. So that's number one. Sandra (22:51) Yeah Elizabeth Klinck (23:10) composition or synchronization rights, and those are usually owned by a publisher unless the person has retained them and they're self-published. So there are two really great sources where you can find all that information. BMI and ASCAP has the majority of songs in the world in their one song view, which is a search engine. And you find out who are the people who wrote the song. are the people who publish the song and there can be more than one, who are the people who perform the song. That's important to find that out as well. And so you start with getting the permission for the writing of the song and that includes lyrics and music. Then once you get that quote, then you go to the master rights, which is the other side of the song, and that's the person who performs the song or the group that performs the song. And that's usually a record album. you go there and nine times out of 10, they're going to ask for the same price as the composition or sync rights. So there are sort those two sides. Then there are other things that you need to take into account for if it's being played on a broadcaster, the mechanical rights and some of the royalty fees. And that's where a good cue sheet comes in handy. So they know exactly how many notes and how it's been used. And that's their little roadmap for paying out the rights to the musicians. And then of course there's public domain music where you still have to make sure you've got proof that's in the public domain and there's different places you can go to do that. That's music that's no longer under copyright. So, but it's a complicated job. It's far more complicated in many ways than archive clearances because of the many moving pieces. often that's the rights are not 100 % owned. You may have somebody owning 5 % of the entire song and you have to track them down because you only have 95 % of your song cleared, you can't use it. it's a music supervisor is the name of the person who does that full time as a job. But I found it was if I just had one or two songs to clear, they couldn't really justify the cost of hiring a music supervisor for that. So I would clear that and then I Sometimes, as I say, in slow times, I would just take over and do more music clearances because dramas always need music clearance, even if documentaries aren't being funded. Dominic Dare (25:25) Yeah. And that's really comprehensive. Thank you so much. I understand it a little bit better myself. So should we? We'll move forward. We have a very fun round, which we're to do with you, Elizabeth, which is a quick fire thing. I will let my esteemed colleague, Sandra, take the reins. Elizabeth Klinck (25:31) you Yay. Okay. Sandra (25:42) Are you ready Elizabeth? So this is time for you to test your reflexes. This is our archive lightning round. Fast answers only. No red tape. Just go for it. Yeah, just go for it, right? Okay, first place you start your search with. Elizabeth Klinck (25:43) I am. Ooh! Okay. Okay. No red tape, did you say? Okay. Okay. footage.net. Dominic Dare (26:04) What's harder to track down the clip or the rights holder? Elizabeth Klinck (26:08) what's harder to... the rights holder. Sandra (26:09) Most underused archive gem. Elizabeth Klinck (26:12) most underused things I've used in my career you mean or overall? overall. I think it's probably from non-famous people like a new point of view that you haven't heard over and over and over again. Sandra (26:15) Yeah, overall, Okay, most overused. Elizabeth Klinck (26:27) well, I would say President of the United States. Sandra (26:30) I love that Biggest myth about archive producers? Elizabeth Klinck (26:34) biggest myth, thing I don't like. Well, I love them all. But the biggest myth would be somebody who's not very generous, somebody who you call up and you say, could you help me out? And they say, well, I worked really hard to find this. yeah, there's a special place in hell for them. Sandra (26:35) Yeah. Dominic Dare (26:50) hahahahah Sandra (26:52) What makes your heart sink? We lost the master, we don't control that, or the rights have expired. Elizabeth Klinck (26:54) Go! Well, last semester depends on how old it is because that one you usually can work around, but the rights are expired makes my heart sing. That makes my heart sing. You said sing, not sink, right? Sandra (27:11) Yeah. One archive you could get lost in. Elizabeth Klinck (27:16) Wow, that's a hard one. love them all. Library of Congress. Did you want a commercial archive? Sandra (27:21) Okay, you can choose whatever you like. Dominic Dare (27:24) No. Elizabeth Klinck (27:26) But the Library of Congress just has the whole world. That's what I love about it. It's such a great library. Sandra (27:32) Budget or time, which hurts you more? Elizabeth Klinck (27:34) Well, sometimes you don't have either. I always say you either have one or the other. Budget or time, I'd rather have time because that's how you find and make relationships. Sandra (27:37) Yeah. Okay. One thing every director should know before searching for archive footage. Elizabeth Klinck (27:51) don't grab stuff out of YouTube, including this show. Sandra (27:55) Yes! And the big one, what's the holy grail of footage you're still dreaming about? Trying to find. Elizabeth Klinck (28:04) boy, I've got a few. Holy grail, the one that's gotten away. Well, the one that everybody's looking for, Nikita Krishnickov slapping his shoe down on the podium at the United Nations. mean, I don't think we'll ever find that one, but it's, I think it's, again, sometimes not the famous. It's just something that is. Sandra (28:14) You Elizabeth Klinck (28:24) I've found a few that have come close and it's one photo that just speaks volumes. It's like it's an essay in itself and when you find them it's the greatest. So one of those. Dominic Dare (28:35) I'd like to get a little bit of your thoughts, on the future. obviously we've mentioned briefly the dreaded AI word, but just from a general perspective, what are your thoughts about the industry? Elizabeth Klinck (28:45) Mm-hmm. Dominic Dare (28:51) archives and institutions and looking after footage and then also archive production. Where do you think things going at the moment? Elizabeth Klinck (28:58) say that we, you I always sum up AI as good, bad and ugly because we've definitely benefited from AI. We have had great search tools. We've got, you know, translation, captions are so easy. I think AI, I hope that the next generations behind me have the joy of finding material and getting paid to find that material that doesn't get lost or thrown out because somebody says, well, we can just make that. We can produce that with a few good prompts. And so that's my worry is that the job itself might become more almost like an accountant or a policeman saying, this real? Yes, check, check, check. It's going to be the veracity test. It's going to be the authenticity test. And so I hope that the next generations of archive producers still get the thrill of the hunt and the joy of the find. And so I worry about that in the future. I think we are all drowning in imagery. I'm very concerned about the environmental impact of all of that imagery. And certainly AI has a very huge footprint. So that worries me. I feel that people have to be always made aware of the fact that archives are really our keepers. These are the people who keep our past. And so we have to... really make sure that they're supported and that people aren't always looking for ways they can take stuff for free. Because without archives, we wouldn't have a lot of this material. It's expensive to store it, to transfer it, to deliver it. I'm, you know, you guys are my heroes and we couldn't do this job without it. I mean, especially because in uncertain political times, we've seen this in some countries where political will over trumps public material and that is not a good thing. So I think we're all living in a rather precarious period and I think we have to make sure we can get access to material whether it's commercial or public because of certain conditions and that's my big fear going forward is that we're always going to have that same access. Dominic Dare (31:00) Um, you know, that's many, many years in the industry, wonderfully a holistic view of where things are at Elizabeth. Um, you know, I, we, we are so grateful to have had you join us today. Um, thank you ever so much for your time and expertise. I don't feel like we've really scratched the surface, but we are sort of coming towards the end of our time. Perhaps next time we'll have you on. We'll, we'll do a bit more of a deep dive in some of your amazing specific projects that you've worked on because your filmography is just immense. Um, so. Elizabeth Klinck (31:06) you Yeah. Dominic Dare (31:26) you know, thanks again for joining us and we will be signing off. We'll see you again soon, everybody. Elizabeth Klinck (31:31) Thank you so much.